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MS Killed Java: Time for Justice - A Commentary on Sun's Injunction Request Against Microsoft

MS Killed Java: Time for Justice - A Commentary on Sun's Injunction Request Against Microsoft

(August 30, 2002) - It's interesting to discuss this on the day that Michael Skakel, the "Kennedy cousin", is sentenced to 20 years to life for killing a woman 25 years ago. Someone mentioned to me that it seems a harsh punishment for something that happened so long ago, and I could only reply, "She's still dead."

Five years ago, almost to the day, Microsoft shipped IE4 with a JVM that was intentionally engineered to provide leverage to corrupt and pollute Java compatibility standards. The US District Court clearly found Microsoft guilty of illegal anticompetitive behavior with respect to Java, and that court's findings were upheld and clarified by the US Court of Appeals. Nonetheless, Microsoft has continued to benefit from having used its monopoly power illegally to suppress the emerging success of Java. They have been as free during these past five years as Michael Skakel was since he committed his crime. It is time for justice to be done, and justice demands that Java get the chance to succeed that Microsoft intentionally and illegally took away.

It doesn't matter that Microsoft committed the illegal acts a long time ago, they are no less culpable. I support Sun's motion and hope that the judge who hears this case will understand that Microsoft's illegal acts were made even more severe by the fact that Microsoft committed them early enough to kill Java on the client before it had a reasonable chance to succeed. In the famous words of Barney Fife, they "nipped it in the bud!" It is representative of the worst and most calculated forms of illegal use of monopoly power.


Microsoft's Response to Sun's Injunction Request
Due in October

(August 29, 2002) -- Microsoft has until Oct. 4 to respond to Sun Microsystems' request for a federal court injunction requiring Microsoft to integrate Java into Windows, said Sun spokeswoman Penny Bruce.

This week, U.S. District Judge J. Frederick Motz set a Dec. 3 hearing on Sun's request for the preliminary injunction, in which Sun also asks that Microsoft be prevented from distributing Virtual Machine for Java in an unlicensed manner.

Last March, Sun filed the private antitrust lawsuit in federal court in San Jose, CA, and transferred the suit to Maryland in August. The lawsuit alleges Microsoft's antitrust violations have harmed the Java platform, and have forced other companies to distribute or use products incompatible with Java. Sun also charges that Microsoft has intentionally created incompatibilities between Microsoft software and competing technologies. Sun has not set a definite dollar amount in the lawsuit, but has said it is seeking coverage for legal costs as well as economic damages.

More Stories By Rick Ross

Rick Ross is the founder of Javalobby (www.javalobby.org). He is a frequent speaker at Java-related events and a well-known advocate for Java developer interests.

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Most Recent Comments
Zafar 07/07/04 08:10:21 AM EDT

2 years on, and at least where I am living people understand the power of java, and are using it! The world''s biggest oil company has a java initiative! long live netbeans, long live j2se/j2ee 1.4x, long live, tomcat! Thanks to .net technology people here are finally beginning to understand the value of java, and are dropping .net for java.

Emerson Lopes 12/12/02 08:13:00 AM EST

What's your problem? Are you blind? Have you forgot about how slow java client apps are? Java almost disappear because its weakness on client side. App server has created a new world of opportunities for Java. I'm working now in three new huge projects using Websphere App Server and there is a lot more coming. I almost had no work using applets technologies or client side Java related technologies, just server-side.

Nate Scott 09/27/02 07:38:00 PM EDT

Java? What a pathetic waste of time language. An alternative for developers who weren't smart enough to learn C and C++ from the beginning. Java was the dummy's way out. With twenty-five years of software development experience ranging from Assembly to C++ and more, I have absolutely no sympathy for Sun or its language that is basically used by disgruntled Microsoft haters. Simply put and said again, Microsoft just built a better mouse trap and...it came with cheese.

Dan 09/21/02 08:54:00 AM EDT

To Brian Kiser,

We have law in this country, law that protect the competive enviroment. Microsoft like anyone else has to abide by those law. If people dont like the laws here move

Hash 09/17/02 03:11:00 PM EDT

There are way too many frog in the well who cant and will not see what is outside of MicroSoft. Well ya I know it take a bit to think than to use a cliche like 'Survival of the fittest'.

Wondering: have you tried to buy a brand name computer offlate (like a dell) that will give u an option not to buy MS. Oh no.. that cant happen, cause they know whats best for us, right ??

Fauss Hull 09/14/02 03:08:00 PM EDT

TRUE. It's not Bill Gates fault he's competitive, however, once a company gets monopoly power, the only way to allow competition to continue IS through anti-trust laws.

MicroSoft would not exist as we know it today (or at all) if the US government had not prosecuted IBM in the 70's for anti competetive behavior under the anti-trust laws. At that time IBM was also killing all of the competition by doing just what MicroSoft does today. Not allowing software from other vendors to run on their machines (unless it didn't make lots of money) etc.

As a result of this anti-trust suite, IBM allowed this 'little man' Bill Gates the right to sell DOS. Bill ran with that gift from the government and we see where he is today.

Ok, he made it big, no BIGGER than BIG, but now its time for the government to limit his monopoly power and promote more free competition of good ideas in the software relm.

C# is simply a poor UNPORTABLE ripoff of Java and Java needs to be allowed to play on a level playing feild, i.e. MS must be forced to make it part of the windows distribution!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ArtPerez 09/04/02 02:19:00 PM EDT

Esta es una lista de cuestiones que creo son realidades, no necesariamente lo son, pero para un sector amplio probablemente lo sea y deberan ser tomadas en cuenta para seguir adelante en nuestra are :

-En el mundo de la aplicacion desktop (standalone, fatclient-server) que es el campo de aplicaciones de software comerciales mas amplio sin duda alguna, Java no tiene un peso significativo, y con la tendencia actual tendra muchos problemas para crecer o definitivamente no crecera.

Sun no deberia de manejar el lenguaje Java, aparentemente la mayor parte de los desarrolladores de Java desearian que el manejo del lenguaje fuera abierto y mas desligado de Sun. Aparentemente, el problema principal de Sun para java es microsoft. Otros lenguajes no tienen este problema, de lo cual podemos deducir que tampoco deberia de serlo para Java, y lo cual nos lleva a inferir que Sun tiene otros objetivos en este altercado. por que deberian de afectar estos a la comunidad de Java?.

-Un manejo MAS abierto del lenguaje Java podria acelerar las mejoras necesarias a Java en sus diferentes areas (mejores librerias de interfaz grafica, mejores maquinas virtuales, etc).

-Una interfaz de desarrollo que FACILITE y AGILICE el desarrollo es algo que desea cualquier desarrollador. Hasta el momento Microsoft las ha hecho mejores. Java es un gran lenguaje, no cabe duda, inclusive Microsoft apuesta a su estructura con J++ y J#. Si el desarrollo en paquetes como Visual J++ o Visual J# estuvieran basados en Java puro, la comunidad de desarrolladores de Java seria mas feliz. Los paquetes de desarrollo comerciales para Java (Jbuilder,SunOne,etc) son inferiores en varios aspectos a las interfaces de desarrollo de Microsoft y esto importa al momento de decidir en que plataforma de desarrollo se trabajara.

-Con las variables del mercado y el ambiente de desarrollo de aplicaciones actuales, el ambiente de Java es seriamente amenazado por .net. Definitivamente, si Java no mejora ENORMEMENTE en el ambito de las aplicaciones cliente, clientepesado-servidor, que es por donde .net empieza a tomar ventaja y que es donde existe mas mercado, Java tendera a la baja.

Deberiamos ampliar esta lista de REALIDADES y no dejar que nuestra postura afecte nuestra vision, o que la afecte lo menos

posible para poder salir adelante de este problema que en realidad apenas empieza y es muy serio, porque define un futuro incierto en nuestra comunidad.

La comunidad de desarrollo de Java debe encontrar ventajas en estas premisas muy rapido para estar a la altura de LAS necesidades y de la competencia.

Iman Mayes 09/03/02 05:10:00 PM EDT

The LAST thing I want is for the Government (the same one pushing UCITA, RIAA, etc) to force any company to put a competitor's product into theirs. This sets a BAD precedent, and is not a remedy to the problem of utilizing monopolistic practices. What the government should do is force Microsoft to allow OEM's to add whatever they want to Windows, and punish them for any monopolistic practices in the past and going forward. Unfortunately, the all mighty US Court systems folded to the all mighty Microsoft-dollar. But, thats another story.

LaloCeli 09/03/02 02:49:00 PM EDT

You obviously do not know much about J2EE. You can set up a 100% J2EE compliant environment/system with only the money for the hardware, as everything else is free, including the Application Server, the Database, etc. I know it because I have done it.

Try doing that with MicroSoft.

I like MicroSoft, I believe they deserve their place in history, as well as a sector of the industry, and I still do projects in MS environments when the need demands, but don't make claims about things that you don't know enough about.

09/03/02 02:42:00 PM EDT

"Java get the chance to succeed that Microsoft intentionally and illegally took away."

I think that Java is doing quite well, and will continue to do so. Because of Java, and of course UNIX, we have replaced all our NT/2000 servers for Sun, and Linux servers. No more C++ under Windows, it mostly Java.

How can you say that MicroSoft has taken anything from Java?? Do you know something that we don't? Did you leavve anything out?

I think that the complaining about MicroSoft has to stop, and lets continue coding in Java.

M. Celi

A. Rowley 09/03/02 01:18:00 PM EDT

Has everyone forgotten stability. I have worked in IT for years and used MS and UNIX, Solaris, iPlanet, jsp, java in th eearly days and I spent way to much time getting paged at night to fix MS stuff. Solaris, iPlanet and java rule... All of our ecommerce java app run high speed and any thing we deploy to the web just simply stays running. MS crashes, get viruses etc. The best choice is Unix and java not MS and .net. or anything MS makes. They keep changing them to make you buy them again and agian, like a junky on drugs.

R. Peterson 09/03/02 10:55:00 AM EDT

It should be intuitively obvious, even to the most casual observer, that Java is "open", which means that it is interoperable, portable, and scalable. And, that none of Microsoft's stuff is any of the above.

Al Hembd 09/03/02 10:00:00 AM EDT

Dear all,

There are some posters above who are entirely missing the boat. Microsoft, in using Java, had to sign the agreement that everyone signs when one downloads the Sun JRE. Namely, 1) to ask Sun's permission before changing any of the code, 2) to make known, via open source, to the whole world, what your changes to the platform were; and
3) most important of all, to ask Sun's permission before using Java commercially.

Let's not forget: Sun has the COPYRIGHT on Java. One must sign a copyright agreement before using it as a product. Microsoft clearly and unquestionably violated copyright/patent law in this whole matter.

I would invite the readers to go download again the SDK for Java 1.4. Right before the download, read the terms of the agreement. If you read them, you will find, plain as day, that Microsoft broke the law.

Just being rich is no excuse for Microsoft to break the law, anymore than it is an excuse for Arthur Anderson or Enron to break the law.

Al Hembd

Christopher 09/03/02 09:48:00 AM EDT
Stephen Bennett 09/03/02 08:50:00 AM EDT

IMHO:
We should all look to a bright future.

As a technology Java has a future. Do not lets any mistakes made in the past or mistakes made in any economic arena fudge you perception of what this technology offers.
As a Sun marketing campaign might say, Go forth and multiple!

Any marketing machine knows: Quickly learn from and then forget mistakes, always look good regardless of the situation.

Thus, Microsoft may not be as solid as we may believe and when one examines the technologies they offer this is clearly the case. They do however show a united and positive front when they are questioned, and, the MS machinery can learn very quickly.
Java and all that goes with it on the other hand has a more troubled pass and future. Primarily due to the fact that it is a more open technology, a technology for the people you might say. Therefore it is reasonable to expect that it will get bashed around more. It is however better and anybody who cannot see that it is better is not looking in the right direction, the future.

Stephen Bennett

Hiring Manager 09/02/02 01:40:00 AM EDT

Guys for my part, I work for a big financial company. We used to be a Microsoft shop with 60+ VB and C++ programmers.

In the last five years we have slowly moved towards J2EE and Java on client side. With a 1000% increase in business we now have 30+ Java/J2EE programmers and are still able to efficiently provide highest uality of services to tyhe finacial professionals in the firm.

We are never hiring another M$, VB programmer again. You will be nits not to have Java / J2EE, Solaris and Linux on your resume and look for a job.

jClub 09/02/02 12:57:00 AM EDT

I can c how much powerfull open standards are !
Its time to get up and start killing MS who is born 2 kill freedom.

Michael H 08/31/02 07:26:00 PM EDT

I've worked on projects that have built large client GUI's using Swing.

Fat-client Java is dead on the because Swing is too clunky. Compraed to other approaches, it's too difficult to acheive a GUI that is both full featured and efficient.

The Java language is a great advance on C++ as practical language for team development. But it was a very tall ask to design a good set of general purpose libraries. Over time Sun has improved many areas of the libraries and they are great for much of the server-side stuff (but I don't buy into J2EE 100% because it too is rather clunky, but improving).

Swing lacks STANDARD higher level abstractions that would make building business GUI's less tedious. It provides a level of abstraction necessary to build browsers, word-processors or spreadsheets, but most of us aren't coding at this level of abstraction. The layering of abstractions is expensive and they turned out to be too clunky for delivering efficient code in the browser, word-processor, spreadsheet style of application they seemed to aimed at.

Sun (accidentally) killed java on the desktop. Microsoft just provided assistance.

Java is alive and well in many other areas and as it evolves it might break out into the mass market desktop at some later date.

Ken 08/31/02 02:36:00 PM EDT

JBoss is J2EE, very nice and free.

Don't know if Java is dead or not, but I
get more interest in my Java experience
then in any other. Java has now (IMO)
surpassed C and C++

I have yet to have anyone ask about VB,
C# or .net This is very subjective, but
I'm sticking with Java. You'd be nuts
not to learn Java comming out of college
today.

Fred Barrett 08/31/02 01:51:00 PM EDT

Coming from a developer perspective, I can get a project done faster and easier in Microsoft's dev environments than any Java IDE. As a systems integrator with deadlines and deliverables, until the Java IDEs start helping the process, Microsoft simply has a better product...whatever the Courts say won't change that for me.

JDWaySide 08/31/02 10:08:00 AM EDT

Stu,

William knows what he's talking about. There is in fact a JavaScript method navigator.javaEnabled() which is used to detect whether or not the user's browser can run Java applets. MSIE 6 appears to return "true" when this method is called regardless of whether the browser is Java-capable or not. So why not get your facts straight before calling people names (and thereby betraying your own ignorance)...?

TruthorDare 08/31/02 05:52:00 AM EDT

Wait for Gosling to talk at Sun's upcoming Sun ONE (Sun's software stuff) conference in mid-September. Java ain't dead, folks. Sun is betting the bank that it will carry them forward. Have you seen N1 from Sun? Incredible architecture concepts and products on the way.

Btw, try getting the JVM from Windows XP. They don't even send you to the right place to get it: java.sun.com or sun.com. I'm an engineer; I grok where to get it. Think about the consumer. Clueless. I think Sun is going to nail M$ to the walls again.

Btw, also: The article above STUNK.

Andrew Neil 08/31/02 05:33:00 AM EDT

Posted by William Volk wrote on 2002-08-29 19:51:55.0

We test for Java via this Javascript statement (after FIRST checking that Javascript is there): if (navigator.javaEnabled()) What happens on some XP machines is that they will tell us they DO have Java ... when they DON'T ...
----------------------

navigator.javaEnabled()) returns a boolean flag as to whether java applets are enabled for execution, NOT whether a jvm is installed.

XP,win2k, win9x etc will return TRUE even if the jvm is missing, it just so happens that this is the natural out of the box state for XP.

IE6 on win xp used to prompt you to download the JVM, now it just says that java is unsupported and you must "find a source to download the required bits"(or there abouts) - Iknow that mean pop along to the Sun ftp site, newbies don't. Its very bad.

javaman 08/31/02 04:19:00 AM EDT

When Sun goes out of business within the next three or four years, who will say, "microsoft killed sun" or "sun killed itself"?

What's the point -- there's no reason to get upset about all of this. It doesn't effect you, the developer, except possibly forcing you to learn a new language that is so similar to all that you know already.

johnnnyboy 08/31/02 12:20:00 AM EDT

I was disturbed by one of the comments here.

Since when is Java open and standards based?

It looks like a SUN standard to me.

Mark Christian 08/30/02 10:50:00 PM EDT

I don't see how this is an issue. It should not be a crime to distribute any form of software in this manner, intentionally buggy or not. Sun was lucky Microsoft gave it any support whatsoever, since it had no future anyway. Java would not have even made itself known to 90% of the population if Microsoft hadn't supported it.

Java is no big loss whatsoever.

impi 08/30/02 08:19:00 PM EDT

http://java.sun.com/products/jfc/tsc/sightings/S10.html
is the 10th installment of swing sightings ... there are many apps, I use many myself, and I am developing a swing based app.
It's only getting better.

Phillip Bogle 08/30/02 08:00:00 PM EDT

Flash today does everything that Java tried to on the client, only much better.

Java applets on the client had ugly loading behavior, ugly UI, and generally not enough UI flash to justify their existence.

Flash filled the nice much better, and has flourished quite well, Microsoft or no Microsoft.

For non flashy, hyperlinked content, good old declarative HTML did a much better job and still does.

Sorry, can't blame Microsoft every time a company fails to execute.

Zoogle 08/30/02 07:10:00 PM EDT

"MS didn't kill java" "java sucks" blah blah blah.

Missing the point, are we? Yes, I'd say so. Here it is again.

Microsoft was found guilty of anticompetition. This verdict was upheld in appeals court. There should be remedies. End of story. I personally don't care how good or bad Java is, I just want to see Microsoft humbled, and I want to see real competition come into the scene.

Fallon Massey 08/30/02 06:54:00 PM EDT

Sun want's a level playing field. Don't make me laugh! Why not try to level the playing field inside of Sun for women and minotiries. Why not be fair with their contractors, they would apreciate a level playing field. Answer is they won't give more than lip service to that, because the only leveling they want is for Microsoft. Sun is begging for special treatment because their stock has tanked. Sorry Charlie, justice for all or justice for none.

Keivn Usery 08/30/02 05:59:00 PM EDT

Why do we need to level the playing field? What ever happened to survival of the fittest? Only the strong survive? Leveling the playing field only introduces a communistic/socialistic characteristic into our capitalistic business system. Let the courts take care of a punishment but do not talk about leveling the playing field. There is room enough out there for all good software. The bad software will fall and die away on it's own and there is nothing you or the government can do about it. The poor me attitude is just an excuse. I personally think JAVA will survive because it is a strong robust language that works.

ha ha ha 08/30/02 05:16:00 PM EDT

I develop using java. Yes, on the desktop and server. No matter what any of you have/will say, java will go on and live on successfully, on desktop and server. My desktop apps rock. I loved it. After release, I ran it on Linux, and was surprised that it runs well!!!

When the client used my app 1.0, I was waiting for a service call, none came, I am still surprised now.

Java is not dead before, not now, or tomorrow.

Greg B 08/30/02 04:54:00 PM EDT

I am stunned by the childishness of some of these comments. Let's review the facts. Java is a fine language which has many good uses. It's not the best for all possible activities but it's a pretty darn good language. Whether or not Java is the ultimate programming language is not the point of this article.

The other fact in this story is that Microsoft DID use it's monopoly power (once again) to crush legit competition. They broke the law and they should be punished. Whether or not you like Java as a language doesn't change the fact that Microsoft has broken (and continues to break) the law. At some point they MUST be held responsible.

Java Developer 08/30/02 04:49:00 PM EDT

MS didn't kill Java, Sun did. I'm a java developer. It's a great language but man is it a pig! Don't believe propaganda. Even SDK 1.4 has terrible performance. I've benchmarked it against C# and found C# runs 2 to 3 times faster.

MrB 08/30/02 04:43:00 PM EDT

>> Java is NOT better than anything MS has produced.

Umm, yes it is. It works. All M$ development technolgies are barely held together with crazy glue, and are so patched that it's a wonder they work at all. Java is worth the investment because it is rock-solid. I know, because I've had enterprise experience with both. Feel free to share your experiences...

Noway 08/30/02 04:19:00 PM EDT

As a software engineer, I found Java's run time performance to be unacceptable and clearly there were memory leaks in the JVM which I downloaded from Sun. Leave my program running for four hours just running in a loop, and BOOM it would crash. Add to this the confusing versioning numbers and depracations galore, and you wonder "Why the heck is Sun bothering to do this?"

Indeed, if Sun claims that Java is so great, why is StarOffice written in C++?

Steal Gate 08/30/02 04:08:00 PM EDT

I certify the following:

M$ EXEC = STEAL Lotus Code.
M$ C# = STEAL Boroland Code.
M$ .Net = STEAL Sun Java Code.

Why should M$ invent a technology, when it is easy to STEAL, and when BUSH will give a cover to it.

It is not terrorist act. What Bush is doing about it.

Steal Gate 08/30/02 04:08:00 PM EDT

I certify the following:

M$ EXEC = STEAL Lotus Code.
M$ C# = STEAL Boroland Code.
M$ .Net = STEAL Sun Java Code.

Why should M$ invent a technology, when it is easy to STEAL, and when BUSH will give a cover to it.

It is not terrorist act. What Bush is doing about it.

Stu 08/30/02 03:58:00 PM EDT

What a loser/victim the author is. Sun is killing Java and it's only recourse is to fight in court. I prefer innovation to litigation and distrust companies that pursue litigation as corporate strategy. I remember all the portability promises...what a joke that turned out to be. Try moving an EJB from WebLogic to Websphere. NOT portable.

Victimhood is often used as psychological protection when someone doesn't want to face the facts that they (or one's close to them) are responsible for their situation. Try owning up to your own (and Sun's) errors.

Java should have become a standard years ago. After that fiasco, it was evident McNealy had taken the Ahab route.

Snarf 08/30/02 03:57:00 PM EDT

snarf, snarf

dork 08/30/02 03:29:00 PM EDT

any free (registration not required) forum will always fill up with jackass posts from dorks.

ok, there are a few decent posts, but those are from naive people who don't realize they're talking at mostly dorks.

dork!

Michael Jackson 08/30/02 03:27:00 PM EDT

You know, Java performance on Windows is nearly twice as fast as any other platform. I find that funny. Linux and Java do not go together well at all.

I think Sun needs to get their head out of the clouds. Windows does not come with a Perl interpreter does it? Windows does come with interpreters for all of Microsoft's tools.. But guess what! Microsoft MAKES Windows so logically, Microsoft products are also going to be included.

Anticompetitive? You know there's a fine line between anticompetitive and innovative. Any company that does not own the majority of market share which employs these tactics would be heralded as innovative. Microsoft is holding on to what they have earned, legally but they are not innovative. All of sudden, Microsoft has to CARE about not hurting other people's feelings.

I guarantee Sun would act the same way if they owned the market. Just as history shows, the great IBM did until it was penalized for antitrust violations.

Reality check: You cannot blame Microsoft for its behaviour. We live in a capitalist society. Everyone has a fair shot at making money, but does that mean that those who make money must share what they've earned with those who don't? That's really stupid. We're not even talking about RICH vs. POOR.. We are talking about RICHEST vs. SLIGHTLY LESS RICH. Microsoft donates through the corporation and through Bill Gates a BILLION dollars per year to those who need it.

I think people should grow up, the game is about making money. If you can't make money, get the hell out.

Desihunk 08/30/02 03:26:00 PM EDT

Survival of the fittest? huh?
May be you need a lesson in justice system. We don't live in anarchy, whoever has the gun does not get to kill others and survive. If they do, they are penalized.
Microsoft has to go behind bars for this. They have the gun (monopoly / money) and they are using it without any restraint.

Robert Cummings 08/30/02 03:15:00 PM EDT

The real losers in this are all of us as a community. Just think of all the solutions and productivity that could result if only Microsoft and Sun would be friends and have support for both worlds.

ePINOY 08/30/02 03:14:00 PM EDT

as quoted from rob:

"That's right. "Survival of the fittest" is where it's at. Kennedy shot that woman. If she was fittest she would have ducked. Whatever MS does is okay if they survive. Have I stated your position correctly? Don't come crying to me if your the one who fails to duck.... "

that's a very, ummm, sick statement. it isn't survival of the fittest when something like that happens. it's called malice and murder....nothing to survive from that...that's like me breaking your neck, and saying that your neck bones would be stronger if you were the fittest....some people, what an idiot!

ASRG 08/30/02 03:12:00 PM EDT

> What have you been smoking!

Man, who do you thing you are to publish your stupid opinions here? To me is quite clear that you have NO eXPerienced in multi-platform developments. From this perspective I understand your opinion. If all you got is Windows then its fine. Just remember, OUR world is bigger than this.

No standards? Expensive???? Watch what you're saying. Just typing your "thoughts" in uppercase doesn't make them a truth. Learn Java, learch J2EE, learn JBoss and then we can write down how much you pay for a Java-based solution versus a Windows solution. Easy.

SLN 08/30/02 03:00:00 PM EDT

Sun created Java, but by no means has the best development tools. Sun's hardware business is becomming comodity and Sun has rarely fully followed through on software in the long haul. Submit Java as a standard like Microsoft did to ECMA. Java is a great environment for server side work, but IBM or another will end up controlling it since they provide better tools and support without the attitude and the bah humbug Sun approach. The Sun is dimming, Java will survive.

Microsoft for all of its business issues, has spent their time one-upping Java on several fronts. While Microsoft has only sponsered one port of .NET to FreeBSD, others such as Ximian are working on putting .NET on Linux and other Unix variants. .NET takes on Java by allowing any .NET language to be portable. Why force everyone to one language. That's like saying Earth people should only speak French.

Organizationally, supporting a limited set of languages is a strong argument for meeting staffing requirements and minimizing the training required to make new employees productive. If an organization supports 2 languages, they can recruit from 2 talent pools, that's a great benefit.

As the multiple ports of .NET make it to new platforms, with or without direct MS support, this issue will die along with Sun. Even die hard Linux lovers in the open source community love .NET...

Microsoft's strategy has been brilliant. They have addressed two problems with a single solutions.

.NET One ups Java big time and puts Sun on the defensive where they will no doubt spend more time litigating then running their company and adapting their business model to suit the changing market.

Number 2, .NET addresses a possible splitup of microsoft by adding the .NET platform independent layer. If the company is split up, then the .NET Framework provides platform independance for the application company (Just port the environment like Ximian is doing or like Corel did in moving it FREE BSD) and therefore independance from the windows platform. So, Split the company up and the new Microsoft Application Company, divides and multiplies onto every platform under the "Sun", no pun intended (well maybe). All MS Applications running on every platform..... The only thing stopping them is a reason. If the Govt or judicial system gives them the reason, then the industry will see MS Office Everywhere, MS Money Everywhere, IIS Everwhere, Visual Studio.NET Everywhere...

So my opinion is.. Take a step back and be carefull what you wish for... You might just get more than you bargained for.

What a brilliant strategy.... It might just work.....

Erik 08/30/02 02:59:00 PM EDT

If it were it would be cross platform independant. It is not. If you're not running Windoze then you can't use the crap. So, get over it, C# is a joke.

Andrew 08/30/02 02:58:00 PM EDT

Like the IE JVM was the ONLY option java developers had! Every desktop Java application I've ever used shipped with its own JRE. Could someone please explain how IE's JVM could've been the crushing blow? (let's not froget that it was also faster and way more optimized than anything Sun offered at that point). Client-side Java is dead because it's butt slow and Sun's "write once, run everywhere" claim is a big fat lie!

Vijaya Lata 08/30/02 02:35:00 PM EDT

If Sun thinks Miscrosoft is the reason behind java(client's) downfall I can't disagree more. Java client is a piece os #$*!. Especially java GUI..it is no match to VB or Windows GUI developed using VC++ or VB. MFC is still 10000 times better than JFC and the hype. Look at the Java GUIs ...it is disgusting.
On server side...java still rules but MS is catching up fast..Sun should stop thinking that it is God. If Java was so good why do we see so many managers taking back foot when it comes to java ? why is all the money for MS and little for Java ? IBM probably makes more money on Java than Sun.

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