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johnpetersen wrote: Great post. You hit some good points, and hopefully me sending this post. It wil...


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Keeping the Faith
Keeping the Faith

In the Java community you have two schools of thought: the zealots, if you will, who feel that pure Java is worth the attempt, and the compromisers, who feel it's more important to use Java no matter what.

Swing against SWT is a good example of this: SWT is a compromise, where native GUI elements are used to further Java, and Swing is the pure Java element. The GUI is hardly the only battle fought by these two "camps." Think of those who advocate Java-to-native compilation (or oppose it), or those who want Java to have features used by C#, like attributes and autoboxing (and those who don't want those features). They're similar issues, fought for and over with the passion normally reserved for raw survival.

I find myself on the zealots' side, but I have to confess that I understand those who do not. Perhaps the zealots - the "pure Java" camp - are throwing the dice, hoping Java is strong enough right now to survive and win. Throwing the dice means you might win...and you might lose - and Java might become irrelevant. Compromising might subvert the original intent, but also ensure the survival of the technology and the benefits it has brought and continues to bring.

It could be that the time is ripening for open source Java, with the commits being validated by Sun to prevent wild strains in a methodology similar to that followed by Linux. Java is currently burdened by its appearance as both a product (see the "Java Desktop," for example) and a commodity (witness the various add-ons, such as SWT and JGoodies, which purport to make "core Java" better or easier or, if you like, "faster"). The add-on products aren't bad, per se, but with the confusion over Java's core role, they fracture the foundation for the community. We need to see Java as a commodity, as something that everyone can use, such that Sun is itself a controlling interest of an available technology - not the controlling interest of a product that everyone else is allowed to use, because the allowance itself grants value. It's either valuable or it's not. I say it is - but the longer it's shared grudgingly, the less valuable it appears.

What I would like to see is a viable future strategy. I'm willing to accept that SWT fixed some issues present in an older version of the JRE, and the native OS look and feel is an advantage for those who wish it. (I personally switch OSes too often to want a native look and feel. I want my applications to work the same regardless of OS.) That said, I think that Swing has caught up to SWT in many ways and, in other ways, I think it will catch up if it's important enough, and eventually you'll see SWT as I do: as a split in Java, in what could be a unified front. It's important to me that Java has a plan for handling situations like this, where there's a viability in "pure Java" that needs to be preserved, but an "impure Java" possibility needs to be addressed.

I wish I could see the future and tell you which camp was better for Java: the one that advocates a "pure vision," despite being flawed in perceptible ways, or the one that advocates the surrender of a fight that, in their opinion, not only isn't winnable, but has already been lost. The optimist in me says that the former view is better, that flaws can be corrected with time...but the existence of the latter worries me, unless steps are taken to use the strengths of all involved.

About Joseph Ottinger
Joseph Ottinger, formerly editor-in-chief of JDJ (2003-4), is a consultant with Fusion Alliance in Indianapolis and is one of the contributors to the OpenSymphony project.

YOUR FEEDBACK
Paul Singleton wrote: I think Joseph is wrong to characterise as "compromisers" those "who feel it''s more important to use Java": was "engineers" the word you sought? What is Java, if not a better way to build software for the real world? The zealots who insist we shouldn''t adopt Java without adopting the principle of a platform independent GUI are probably the same guys who go to Star Trek conventions to talk Klingon: I''m sure it''s a fulfilling, self-consistent fantasy world but... Swing was a misconceived investment, and you can''t correct this by making it compulsory :-) That it has PLAFs seems to undermine the "one (new) GUI! (ours)" manifesto. There is a market out there for software which conforms closely to well-established looks-and-feels, which browses huge lists and trees no more slowly than native widgets do, and which passes for native (fools the users). If Swing did this better that...
Serge Bureau wrote: Mr Ottinger, That is your problem you never realised I care. My tone will change when JDJ changes. But there was a few interesting technical articles in this number (like the one on NIO for example) so I will take a look but it is issue by issue as I am far from convinced by your new look. Only the content interest me. And stupidity like "middleware is dead" is not impressive. And do not defend yourself with reality about SWT and stuff, taking side is acknowledging reality, what is suppose to be your point ?
Robert ENyedi wrote: I''m using Eclipse both on Windows XP and Linux with KDE. I don''t think Eclipse is beautiful, neither that SWT has a nice and os conforming LAF. Take a look at Netbeans (especially the recent 3.6 beta) to see a really beautiful user interface. Look and feel desktop integration. Are you kidding? What should I consider good look and feel desktop integration? The fact that a basic pushbutton doesn''t conform to the Windows XP''s current theme and nor do the combos, radios, checkboxes? I found the standard Swing Windows and GTK PLAFs much more convincing than any SWT native widget. Try to run the SwingSet2 demo with these PLAFs to see my point. Btw did you know that the Windows PLAF dynamically changes as does the system''s theme? PS. I''m using Eclipse because of it''s powerful features regarding productivity. The UI just sucks. And don''t forget that IDEA is the reference. It'...
Joseph Ottinger wrote: Why, Serge, I didn''t know you cared. Actually, I *do* see both sides - and I''m unafraid to admit that. I''m sorry you want to watch a specific dance instead of what''s real, but it certainly fits the tone you''ve always used when discussing JDJ. :)
Serge Bureau wrote: Another politically correct article with no guts. Gee I am on both sides, pathetic. SWT is a big mistake and useless. Simple
Joseph Ottinger wrote: Have you seen the 1.5 beta? Check out the SwingSet2 demo, and use the Windows look and feel.
Denis wrote: What are you talking about - you have to cross OS boundaries sooner or later anyway. It doesn''t contradict Javas purity. That''s how Java platform works. Recall AWT - it was native too but Sun did not have any problems with it, so what''s wrong with SWT? I/O is native too so what? If you fiddle with multiple OSs, you cannot expect window managers to look alike, so why do you want Java apps to look the same on different platforms? Do not forget that the reason for having PLAFs in Swing was to make users feel comfortable with Java apps by switching to their "local" LAF. Well, thats what Javasoft guys said. Whatever fellows in Sun think, there isn''t ANY professionally looking Java applications that employ Swing. Sorry to break it to you, but can''t you see it yourself - that business with Swing citations at Swing Connection is laughable. Can you imagine Microsoft making a blog wi...
David wrote: Eclipse is a perfect example. I used it on wintel platforms for a couple of years and then decided to setup a linux/gnome box at home. I was not particularly happy to see a different eclipse. I felt even more uneasy when after upgrading gtk eclipse morphed again.
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