|By Java News Desk||
|June 18, 2004 12:00 AM EDT||
On Monday we published an article about Keith Lea's one-man attempt to take the benchmark code for C++ and Java from the now outdated Great Computer Language Shootout conducted by Doug Bagley in Fall 2001 and run the tests himself. Within 12 hours 40,000 people had read the piece and by the end of the day Bagley's "Shootout" had even been revived as an ongoing Debian Alioth project.
But while the team behind that project cheerfully says on its Web site "Contributions are welcomed for revised implementations, bug fixes, or ideas for new benchmarks," not everyone agrees with this kind of activity.
When Bagley did the original shootout, he said it was "To learn and to have fun," adding that he would continue continue "as long as the fun holds out." This notion of enjoyment has been revived by the Debian Alioth update:
"The project goals have not changed substantially since Doug's original project. This work is continuing so that we all can learn about new languages, compare them in various (possibly meaningless) ways, and most importantly, have some fun!"But many of those who troubled to record their views in the course of the past few days did not recognize benchmarking/microbenchmarking as anything worth doing at all.
Some took issue with Lea's choice of performance speed as the parameter to compare Java and C++. One, Lachlan Stuart, wrote:
"What you must realize is that C++ and Java have much different targets, it's rare that you will encounter a situation where both are equally suitable. No matter what, unless you forget to turn debug compile off, C++ will beat Java in real world situations on the performance front..."
"Try praising something else about Java...like its security, or ease of programming," Stuart continued.
GooberToo concurred. "The more I read the code, it sure is starting to look more and more like an apples and oranges comparison; which is usually what happens when people do Java benchmarks." And Iain too was unhappy: "Aside from perhaps demonstrating that you know Java far better than you know C++, I don't think these tests were a particularly useful exercise."
Others too felt that Lea's relative unfamiliarity with C++ compromised the exercise. "This article is completely useless and only shows the lack of understanding of C++ by the author," wrote Dr Valentin Samko. "This reminds me of a person who clamed that qbasic is faster than C++ because his program which outputs a few million blank lines works faster in qbasic than in C++."
Glen Low queried the shootout's methodology on a number of counts. Here is one:
"The small size of the programs are a definite advantage for Java's runtime optimizer. A run-time optimizer can't spend forever optimizing, but it has access to actual run-time data, AND can specialize its optimization for the specific processor. (G++, and most other C++ compilers, have flags to allow this as well.) Given the small size, a complete analysis of the program is possible in the limited time available, and given the other additional data, I would find it rather worrisome if Java didn't do better. I'm more sceptical with regards to real programs, however. If there really is one small critical loop, Java should win; that's not the case for most of my programs, however."Scott Ellsworth disagreed with those who dismissed Lea's shootout, though. "The point is that many C++ users feel that Java is too slow and uses too much memory. Microbenchmarks like this show that this off the cuff response is as silly as claiming that exceptions cost too much just because cfront compilers had that cost," he wrote.
"I spent seven years doing C++ in a shrink wrap environment, and five doing Java. In my experience with real world apps, Java code gets done faster, works better out of the box, and is easier to maintain. Tricks like custom memory allocators and carefully crafted templates can make faster C++ code, but I reserve those for time critical parts of the program. Where I do not spend some programmer cycles profiling and optimizing, the two environments are pretty close.Patrik Beno issued a challenge. "I suggest that now it's time for C++ experts to optimize C++ code and compilation, run the very same tests again and post the results."
Thus - if Java is producing code reasonably close or ahead in fairly straightforward usage, and the code gets written faster and more portably, then Java is a win for my work. I can always choose to use C++, assembly, or FORTRAN for the time critical routines, and then link in."
"Don't blame Lea, he did his best, now it's your turn, C++ experts," he added.
Perhaps SWagner would be someone who will rise to the challenge in due course. S/he wasn't at all happy with Lea, writing:
"As an experienced C++ developer (and Java as well) I only see that the C++ code is optimized for minimum performance. Especially the methodcall where the class has virtual constructors or destructors which is seldom useful and significantly hurts performance. Just because you can't turn this off in Java does not mean that you have to make it slow in C++.""In my practical experience," continued Wagner, "normal Java code is 1000 times slower [compared] to OPTIMIZED C++. However if you make severe design flaws you can make any program slow. And if you base on a bad benchmark and make it even worse you should better stop any benchmarking you planned for the future."
Somewhat less disgruntled was m, who wrote: "The benchmarks are interesting, but frankly with real applications, I have never experienced Java performance equal to or better than that of C++."
"I have done a number of home-grown benchmarks for XML parsing, and C/C++ (think expat) are 3-9 times faster," m continued. "The difference there is that the server JVM does indeed optimize over a series of many runs. Java certainly allows us to develop faster, and quite often time to market performance is more important than the performance differences in these two (great in my opinion) platforms. They each have specific advantages."
This, not surprisingly, was the essence of quite a few of the comments. "Java is faster for some applications than C++, and for others C++ is faster. It depends on what you want to do with it," said RebelCool.
But Iain's objection was to the choice of tools to compare, to the entire premise of the shootout in other words:
"The comparison [Lea is] trying to make between C++ and Java is not particularly meaningful. At the end of the day, if a VM is faster, then there is nothing to stop you implementing a VM in C++ and running the 'C++ program' within that framework. What times would then be valid? The tools you are comparing are very different.
In addition, the C++ code is seriously sub-optimal. To take one example, the 'matrix.cpp' is definitely not written for speed. A general purpose C function is being used to repeatedly allocate rows, when a single large block of size 'mn' could have been used. For that matter, why is malloc( ) being used at all? (A custom memory manager optimised for small blocks could have been used instead - malloc( ) is slow.)
If you insist on writing simple C, then at least use memset( ) for the zeromatrix( ) function. Fast template matrix libraries exist for C++ - these could have been used instead - the result would have been shorter, clearer and considerably faster. Aside from perhaps demonstrating that you know Java far better than you know C++, I don't think these tests were a particularly useful exercise."
NotZed disagreed with the premise too, writing: "Java works well as a COBOL replacement, a backend application language for boring buisiness apps. That's what it should be benchmarked against. Comparing it to C is like comparing apples and oranges."
Chris countered: "Surely the benchmark is no less meaningful than when it was originally used to show C++ was faster than Java."
And Christopher White commented:
"Thanks for the comparison Keith. I enjoyed reading your commentary.
Many people have stated in response to this article that Java, as everyone knows, is slow... This is certainly not the case. I am team leader of a Java development team. We have six applications in production on a certain open source application server. We have 1200 users of these applications. The applications are load-balanced over two machines (each machine : HP DL380 2*2.8GHz 2Gb RAM). We have on average 2% Cpu utilisation. Whilst this is of course just a subjective view of Java performance, I can say that we certainly do not have the impression that Java is at all slow.
I accept that for memory deallocation C++ can be tailored to the needs of the application at hand so it will be difficult to beat on this score, however one must remember that the just in time compiler compiles code into native machine language and that this compiler is very much optimized on a per platform basis so I don't see why C++ should produce naturally faster compiled code.
Whichever is faster, Java is easily fast enough for most applications and I strongly believe that the overhead in development time incurred by using C++ is rarely justified except in specialized applications such as driver or game coding."
For the moment let's give the last word to SB:
"Java and C++ are different languages, with different advantages/drawbacks, and different philosophies. My experience, from a large company that produces tons of software, is that performance always comes down to the quality of the developers, not the language itself. And we also found out that in today's world, most developers are only average, and this class of developers yields better results with Java than C++."The debate, as they say, will doubtless continue...
|icube 06/29/04 05:47:18 AM EDT|
shootout has a great interest but not between C++ and java but between ocaml and java .... :-))))
be aware & wake up !!!
|microbenchmarks 06/21/04 06:47:50 AM EDT|
Doug Bagley''s original Great Computer Language Shootout was a neat idea: a collection of little benchmarks written in several dozen languages for the purposes of comparing speed, memory usage, and lines of code. He used to say that his favorites of all the languages were those in the ML family, and in particular Ocaml.
|Robert McGovern 06/20/04 04:33:36 PM EDT|
comp.lang.c++.moderated list at Google Groups. At least be accurate and say on the newsgroup comp.lang.c++.moderated, rather than push the notion that the group is only available via Google groups.
To many people, IoT is a buzzword whose value is not understood. Many people think IoT is all about wearables and home automation. In his session at @ThingsExpo, Mike Kavis, Vice President & Principal Cloud Architect at Cloud Technology Partners, discussed some incredible game-changing use cases and how they are transforming industries like agriculture, manufacturing, health care, and smart cities. He will discuss cool technologies like smart dust, robotics, smart labels, and much more. Prepare to be blown away with a glimpse of the future.
Jun. 30, 2015 10:20 AM EDT
The Internet of Things is not only adding billions of sensors and billions of terabytes to the Internet. It is also forcing a fundamental change in the way we envision Information Technology. For the first time, more data is being created by devices at the edge of the Internet rather than from centralized systems. What does this mean for today's IT professional? In this Power Panel at @ThingsExpo, moderated by Conference Chair Roger Strukhoff, panelists addressed this very serious issue of profound change in the industry.
Jun. 30, 2015 09:45 AM EDT Reads: 693
Internet of Things (IoT) will be a hybrid ecosystem of diverse devices and sensors collaborating with operational and enterprise systems to create the next big application. In their session at @ThingsExpo, Bramh Gupta, founder and CEO of robomq.io, and Fred Yatzeck, principal architect leading product development at robomq.io, discussed how choosing the right middleware and integration strategy from the get-go will enable IoT solution developers to adapt and grow with the industry, while at the same time reduce Time to Market (TTM) by using plug and play capabilities offered by a robust IoT ...
Jun. 29, 2015 06:00 PM EDT Reads: 1,762
SYS-CON Events announced today that BMC will exhibit at SYS-CON's 16th International Cloud Expo®, which will take place on June 9-11, 2015, at the Javits Center in New York City, NY. BMC delivers software solutions that help IT transform digital enterprises for the ultimate competitive business advantage. BMC has worked with thousands of leading companies to create and deliver powerful IT management services. From mainframe to cloud to mobile, BMC pairs high-speed digital innovation with robust IT industrialization – allowing customers to provide amazing user experiences with optimized IT per...
Jun. 29, 2015 12:15 PM EDT Reads: 2,567
There will be 150 billion connected devices by 2020. New digital businesses have already disrupted value chains across every industry. APIs are at the center of the digital business. You need to understand what assets you have that can be exposed digitally, what their digital value chain is, and how to create an effective business model around that value chain to compete in this economy. No enterprise can be complacent and not engage in the digital economy. Learn how to be the disruptor and not the disruptee.
Jun. 29, 2015 11:00 AM EDT Reads: 2,118
Internet of Things is moving from being a hype to a reality. Experts estimate that internet connected cars will grow to 152 million, while over 100 million internet connected wireless light bulbs and lamps will be operational by 2020. These and many other intriguing statistics highlight the importance of Internet powered devices and how market penetration is going to multiply many times over in the next few years.
Jun. 29, 2015 11:00 AM EDT Reads: 1,886
It is one thing to build single industrial IoT applications, but what will it take to build the Smart Cities and truly society-changing applications of the future? The technology won’t be the problem, it will be the number of parties that need to work together and be aligned in their motivation to succeed. In his session at @ThingsExpo, Jason Mondanaro, Director, Product Management at Metanga, discussed how you can plan to cooperate, partner, and form lasting all-star teams to change the world and it starts with business models and monetization strategies.
Jun. 29, 2015 10:00 AM EDT Reads: 2,040
The Internet of Things is not only adding billions of sensors and billions of terabytes to the Internet. It is also forcing a fundamental change in the way we envision Information Technology. For the first time, more data is being created by devices at the edge of the Internet rather than from centralized systems. What does this mean for today's IT professional? In this Power Panel at @ThingsExpo, moderated by Conference Chair Roger Strukhoff, panelists will addresses this very serious issue of profound change in the industry.
Jun. 29, 2015 09:45 AM EDT Reads: 2,455
Business as usual for IT is evolving into a "Make or Buy" decision on a service-by-service conversation with input from the LOBs. How does your organization move forward with cloud? In his general session at 16th Cloud Expo, Paul Maravei, Regional Sales Manager, Hybrid Cloud and Managed Services at Cisco, discusses how Cisco and its partners offer a market-leading portfolio and ecosystem of cloud infrastructure and application services that allow you to uniquely and securely combine cloud business applications and services across multiple cloud delivery models.
Jun. 28, 2015 11:00 AM EDT Reads: 2,176
In his General Session at 16th Cloud Expo, David Shacochis, host of The Hybrid IT Files podcast and Vice President at CenturyLink, investigated three key trends of the “gigabit economy" though the story of a Fortune 500 communications company in transformation. Narrating how multi-modal hybrid IT, service automation, and agile delivery all intersect, he will cover the role of storytelling and empathy in achieving strategic alignment between the enterprise and its information technology.
Jun. 27, 2015 10:00 AM EDT Reads: 2,193
Buzzword alert: Microservices and IoT at a DevOps conference? What could possibly go wrong? In this Power Panel at DevOps Summit, moderated by Jason Bloomberg, the leading expert on architecting agility for the enterprise and president of Intellyx, panelists peeled away the buzz and discuss the important architectural principles behind implementing IoT solutions for the enterprise. As remote IoT devices and sensors become increasingly intelligent, they become part of our distributed cloud environment, and we must architect and code accordingly. At the very least, you'll have no problem fillin...
Jun. 26, 2015 12:00 PM EDT Reads: 2,186
Growth hacking is common for startups to make unheard-of progress in building their business. Career Hacks can help Geek Girls and those who support them (yes, that's you too, Dad!) to excel in this typically male-dominated world. Get ready to learn the facts: Is there a bias against women in the tech / developer communities? Why are women 50% of the workforce, but hold only 24% of the STEM or IT positions? Some beginnings of what to do about it! In her Opening Keynote at 16th Cloud Expo, Sandy Carter, IBM General Manager Cloud Ecosystem and Developers, and a Social Business Evangelist, d...
Jun. 26, 2015 10:00 AM EDT Reads: 2,048
Converging digital disruptions is creating a major sea change - Cisco calls this the Internet of Everything (IoE). IoE is the network connection of People, Process, Data and Things, fueled by Cloud, Mobile, Social, Analytics and Security, and it represents a $19Trillion value-at-stake over the next 10 years. In her keynote at @ThingsExpo, Manjula Talreja, VP of Cisco Consulting Services, discussed IoE and the enormous opportunities it provides to public and private firms alike. She will share what businesses must do to thrive in the IoE economy, citing examples from several industry sectors.
Jun. 25, 2015 02:00 PM EDT Reads: 1,987
In his keynote at 16th Cloud Expo, Rodney Rogers, CEO of Virtustream, discussed the evolution of the company from inception to its recent acquisition by EMC – including personal insights, lessons learned (and some WTF moments) along the way. Learn how Virtustream’s unique approach of combining the economics and elasticity of the consumer cloud model with proper performance, application automation and security into a platform became a breakout success with enterprise customers and a natural fit for the EMC Federation.
Jun. 25, 2015 01:30 PM EDT Reads: 2,132
SYS-CON Events announced today that the "Second Containers & Microservices Conference" will take place November 3-5, 2015, at the Santa Clara Convention Center, Santa Clara, CA, and the “Third Containers & Microservices Conference” will take place June 7-9, 2016, at Javits Center in New York City. Containers and microservices have become topics of intense interest throughout the cloud developer and enterprise IT communities.
Jun. 22, 2015 02:15 PM EDT Reads: 2,718
SYS-CON Events announced today that the "First Containers & Microservices Conference" will take place June 9-11, 2015, at the Javits Center in New York City. The “Second Containers & Microservices Conference” will take place November 3-5, 2015, at Santa Clara Convention Center, Santa Clara, CA. Containers and microservices have become topics of intense interest throughout the cloud developer and enterprise IT communities.
Jun. 20, 2015 12:00 PM EDT Reads: 3,836
With major technology companies and startups seriously embracing IoT strategies, now is the perfect time to attend @ThingsExpo in Silicon Valley. Learn what is going on, contribute to the discussions, and ensure that your enterprise is as "IoT-Ready" as it can be! Internet of @ThingsExpo, taking place Nov 3-5, 2015, at the Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa Clara, CA, is co-located with 17th Cloud Expo and will feature technical sessions from a rock star conference faculty and the leading industry players in the world. The Internet of Things (IoT) is the most profound change in personal an...
Jun. 15, 2015 08:45 PM EDT Reads: 4,066
17th Cloud Expo, taking place Nov 3-5, 2015, at the Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa Clara, CA, will feature technical sessions from a rock star conference faculty and the leading industry players in the world. Cloud computing is now being embraced by a majority of enterprises of all sizes. Yesterday's debate about public vs. private has transformed into the reality of hybrid cloud: a recent survey shows that 74% of enterprises have a hybrid cloud strategy. Meanwhile, 94% of enterprises are using some form of XaaS – software, platform, and infrastructure as a service.
Jun. 15, 2015 07:15 PM EDT Reads: 3,862
The 17th International Cloud Expo has announced that its Call for Papers is open. 17th International Cloud Expo, to be held November 3-5, 2015, at the Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa Clara, CA, brings together Cloud Computing, APM, APIs, Microservices, Security, Big Data, Internet of Things, DevOps and WebRTC to one location. With cloud computing driving a higher percentage of enterprise IT budgets every year, it becomes increasingly important to plant your flag in this fast-expanding business opportunity. Submit your speaking proposal today!
Jun. 15, 2015 10:15 AM EDT Reads: 5,921
In his keynote at 16th Cloud Expo, Rodney Rogers, CEO of Virtustream, discusses the evolution of the company from inception to its recent acquisition by EMC – including personal insights, lessons learned (and some WTF moments) along the way. Learn how Virtustream’s unique approach of combining the economics and elasticity of the consumer cloud model with proper performance, application automation and security into a platform became a breakout success with enterprise customers and a natural fit for the EMC Federation.
Jun. 11, 2015 08:00 AM EDT Reads: 2,319