Welcome!

Java IoT Authors: APM Blog, Liz McMillan, Elizabeth White, Simon Hill, Stackify Blog

Related Topics: Java IoT, IBM Cloud, Linux Containers, Containers Expo Blog

Java IoT: Article

Is Java Bigger than Sun? - The Java Ecosystem Debates the Future of Java

Is Java Bigger than Sun? - The Java Ecosystem Debates the Future of Java

  • Sun's President: "JavaOne Wasn't About Sun"

    It was billed, to the press anyway, as a debate on "The Big Question."

    It brought together, in the general session hall yesterday morning at JavaOne in San Francisco's Moscone Center, seven highly vocal actors on the technology stage, including: Brian Behlendorf of the Apache Software Foundation; Professor Lawrence Lessig of Stanford University; Sun's Rob Gingell, Chairman of the Java Community Process; Rod Smith, VP of Emerging Technologies at IBM; and the father of Java himself, Sun's James Gosling.

    But what was the question? Was it should Sun open-source Java? Or was it if Sun were to open-source Java what exactly would that mean? Or was it, more philosophically, is Java bigger than Sun alone - and if so, how can others who have invested heavily in it, like IBM, BEA, and Nokia for example, get a better seat at the table in the process that shapes it, which is currently the JCP?

    In other words, there are multiple questions. Questions within questions. It isn't as easy issue.

    Sun Microsystems however, fully in tune with the "today is geek day" theme of the overall general session this morning, made a very good first attempt indeed at showing itself publicly to be a thoughtful and an open-minded custodian of the current process under which Java is evolved.

    Both Rob Gingell and James Gosling listened carefully to the arguments that were advanced by Brian Behlendorf, CTO of CollabNet in addition to being co-founder of Apache, and by IBM's Rod Smith, whose now notorious Open Letter to Sun caused the whole open-sourcing discussion to really blossom in the Java space.

    "We're hitting an interesting inflection point," said Smith. Innovation in the open source community as well as the Java community is plateau-ing, he contended. "We want to see innovation happen at a more rapid pace," he added.

    "My view," Smith continued, "is that we want to see an open source Java married more with the open source projects that Brian and other folks are doing. In enterprise development you want to be able to experiment outside of the box and then try it in a customer environment before bringing it into the JCP and completing the more formal process."

    The moderator of "The Big Question," open source advocate and publisher Tim O'Reilly, asked Smith just what he meant by open-sourcing Java.

    "Java is about compatability," Smith replied. "J2SE people expect compatability, so you could open the TDKs around JSE where customers and others could get involved with testing for compatability. The Jakarta Project set the foundation for things we see today - Struts and JSF for example - that have come back into the JCP process."

    Sun's Rob Gingell, in his capacity as chairman of the JCP, had no issues with this overall train of thought. "This would be a continuation of a journey we’ve been on for 10 years," Gingell observed. "Originally it was Sun and Sun only, now it's a variety of contributors, and we know it's going to continue to evolve. But there's a fundamental promise: that Java programs will not be lied to by things pretending to be Java." (This brought a round of applause from developers in the keynote hall.)

    Brian Behlendorf stressed the importance of "framing the conversation correctly," as he expressed it. "The Java community should support the open-source way of achieving ubiquity," he urged. "The open source community around Java would like to look at compatability of open source Java as symbiotic with innovation, not as two opposed ends of the spectrum."

    Creating intermediate/experimental versions of Java that might not be compatible is a natural part of the open source process, Behlendorf argued. So long as this fact is made transparent. "We believe in the 'sunshine law' - that open review leads to better standards and better implementation," he said.

    Lawrence Lessig agreed that Behlendorf and the open source community is right to separate the question of how you get implementations developed from the separate issue of how you get them verified for compatability.

    "Achieve compatability using other legal devices," Lessig suggested. "I believe in the law, and the law has tools independent of those open source and free software licenses, where there is a legitimate commercial objective of obtaining compatability."

    Compatability is the key, key attribute, chimed James Gosling. Java, he pointed out, "doesn't read trademarks, doesn't read licenses." What makes Java different, he reminded everyone, is the network. "As soon as you put an app on a Web site and say download it..."

    Tim O'Reilly wondered whether there would be any self-interest in a business delivering a system that didn't work. Lessig though conceded: "There are people out there who don't want it to work."

    Rod Smith returned to the theme of how the network isn't any longer just about Java.

    "It's not just Java. It's now about SOA and XML and WSDL. The marriage with open source is going to be critical," he asserted.

    Justin Shaffer, Director of Operations for MLB Advanced Media LP who was also on the panel of experts, wondered what would be accomplished by open-sourcing Java. The Jakarta Community after all seemed to work. "Why put it at risk?" asked Shaffer.

    O'Reilly had the answer, and introduced the first mention of a certain large compasny in Redmond. "There's an elephant in the room," he said. "The fact that on Linux the Mono Project is implemented on .NET not Java. Microsoft has a foot in the door, it has its own programming paradigm. We are starting to see another platform war, and we can't count Microsoft out. IBM has more touch points with the Linux community. How do we get that community to choose Java rather than .NET?"

    Gosling noted that Java is "incredibly heavily used" in the Linux community - "Apache, Jakarta - people that consider themselves in the Linux fold, you'll find tremendous use of Java," he said.

    Smith picked up the Mono theme. "Look at Mono. From an open source basis, when people want to innovate they're looking to places like that. You want the Java community and the Linux community to grow together. We as Java vendors spend a lot of money as we put the solutions together, it would lower the cost to integrators and to the developers in this audience and reduce time to market. For applications."

    But Gosling wanted to make one point clear. "It happens already. All of the bug databases are published - unlike say Apple, where they're not published at all. You can find every last wart that everyone has ever found. You can download the full J2SE, you get all the source for all the APIs, the thing that OS folks rant about is that there's a catch in the license that's more onerous than the catch in the GPL license. We've gotten tremendous value out of the comunity, out of the fact that he source is out there."

    Lessig agreed with Gosling, but wondered: "Is it enough?"

    If the process of opening Java were taken one step further, he continued, then developers and vendors wouldn't have to trust "that Sun remains an angel organization and that you will invite more people."

    In Lessig's view, it isn't necessary to solve the problem of compatability right at the beginning of the development proess.

    Gosling: "I love Linux to bits, but..."

    Gosling didn't endorse Linux as a shining example, however. "We lived through the Unix wars," he said, "and I love Linux to bits, but the same problem is coming all over again. All these distros, almost interoperable, but they're different enough to be a pain in the butt."

    Behlendorf noted: "The same is true with the Java VM. Write Once Run Anywhere is a great ideal. Open source developers can help with getting to that ideal. Open sourcing Java would be a way to allow this to happen without folks having to do it on the sly, fearing Sun's lawyers."

    Gingell returned to his theme of how the whole approach taken by Sun to Java has been a "journey," and that his company was learning all the time, listening all the time, and adjusting things along the way.

    "Are we hurting the things we want to help?" he asked, honestly. He recounted how he'd had dinner with the Geronimo folks the previous evening, and that one developer mentioned how he'd watched the TCK run and found broken code...but he couldn't help. Gingell saw the frustration in that: "We don't want to break the promise of compatability, but we also want to enable the positive side."

    Gingell asked Rod Smith a question. "What does the verb 'to open-source' mean in this context? Are we talking about that Sun shouldn't be at the top of the committer tree? Open source may be the answer, but what is the problem, let's be clear? If this were to happen, how do we change our development practices? Part of the difficulties people have are maybe that our licenses are obscure, or that we don't run the communities effectively enough. Maybe we can improve what we have."

    Behlendorf tried to clarify: "No one's asking that all reference implementations in the GCK be made open. Let the license of specs allow for the open-source implementations on a case by case basis. The Groovy JSR is a test case, it says that it will be open-sourced and we'll all see that this wil end in faster results - and yet still will conform with the APIs and compatability."

    Rob Gingell summed up that this question about open-sourcing Java has been raised every JavaOne for the last 4 years. But no one need question for a moment Sun's overwhelming commitment to Java. 

    "We've bet the company on Java," Gingell reminded everyone. "And what we've bet on is compatability. One way to ensure compatability would be to never change Java again. And you'd all stop coming to JavaOne and using Java. So we know we are going to change it. The question is, how can we do that while preserving what we care about? It's a continuous conversation."

    Gosling agreed: "Participate," he urged everyone present in the crowded keynote hall. "We have this forum and often it seems like the squeaky wheels are the only ones that participate."

    He was reminded, he said, of Churchill's remark about how democracy is the worst possible form of government - except for all the others.

    "Go over to jcp.org and get involved," said Gosling. "Vote."

  • More Stories By Java News Desk

    JDJ News Desk monitors the world of Java to present IT professionals with updates on technology advances, business trends, new products and standards in the Java and i-technology space.

    Comments (15)

    Share your thoughts on this story.

    Add your comment
    You must be signed in to add a comment. Sign-in | Register

    In accordance with our Comment Policy, we encourage comments that are on topic, relevant and to-the-point. We will remove comments that include profanity, personal attacks, racial slurs, threats of violence, or other inappropriate material that violates our Terms and Conditions, and will block users who make repeated violations. We ask all readers to expect diversity of opinion and to treat one another with dignity and respect.


    @ThingsExpo Stories
    Coca-Cola’s Google powered digital signage system lays the groundwork for a more valuable connection between Coke and its customers. Digital signs pair software with high-resolution displays so that a message can be changed instantly based on what the operator wants to communicate or sell. In their Day 3 Keynote at 21st Cloud Expo, Greg Chambers, Global Group Director, Digital Innovation, Coca-Cola, and Vidya Nagarajan, a Senior Product Manager at Google, discussed how from store operations and ...
    In his session at 21st Cloud Expo, Carl J. Levine, Senior Technical Evangelist for NS1, will objectively discuss how DNS is used to solve Digital Transformation challenges in large SaaS applications, CDNs, AdTech platforms, and other demanding use cases. Carl J. Levine is the Senior Technical Evangelist for NS1. A veteran of the Internet Infrastructure space, he has over a decade of experience with startups, networking protocols and Internet infrastructure, combined with the unique ability to it...
    "There's plenty of bandwidth out there but it's never in the right place. So what Cedexis does is uses data to work out the best pathways to get data from the origin to the person who wants to get it," explained Simon Jones, Evangelist and Head of Marketing at Cedexis, in this SYS-CON.tv interview at 21st Cloud Expo, held Oct 31 – Nov 2, 2017, at the Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa Clara, CA.
    SYS-CON Events announced today that CrowdReviews.com has been named “Media Sponsor” of SYS-CON's 22nd International Cloud Expo, which will take place on June 5–7, 2018, at the Javits Center in New York City, NY. CrowdReviews.com is a transparent online platform for determining which products and services are the best based on the opinion of the crowd. The crowd consists of Internet users that have experienced products and services first-hand and have an interest in letting other potential buye...
    "MobiDev is a software development company and we do complex, custom software development for everybody from entrepreneurs to large enterprises," explained Alan Winters, U.S. Head of Business Development at MobiDev, in this SYS-CON.tv interview at 21st Cloud Expo, held Oct 31 – Nov 2, 2017, at the Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa Clara, CA.
    SYS-CON Events announced today that Telecom Reseller has been named “Media Sponsor” of SYS-CON's 22nd International Cloud Expo, which will take place on June 5-7, 2018, at the Javits Center in New York, NY. Telecom Reseller reports on Unified Communications, UCaaS, BPaaS for enterprise and SMBs. They report extensively on both customer premises based solutions such as IP-PBX as well as cloud based and hosted platforms.
    WebRTC is great technology to build your own communication tools. It will be even more exciting experience it with advanced devices, such as a 360 Camera, 360 microphone, and a depth sensor camera. In his session at @ThingsExpo, Masashi Ganeko, a manager at INFOCOM Corporation, introduced two experimental projects from his team and what they learned from them. "Shotoku Tamago" uses the robot audition software HARK to track speakers in 360 video of a remote party. "Virtual Teleport" uses a multip...
    Gemini is Yahoo’s native and search advertising platform. To ensure the quality of a complex distributed system that spans multiple products and components and across various desktop websites and mobile app and web experiences – both Yahoo owned and operated and third-party syndication (supply), with complex interaction with more than a billion users and numerous advertisers globally (demand) – it becomes imperative to automate a set of end-to-end tests 24x7 to detect bugs and regression. In th...
    "Space Monkey by Vivent Smart Home is a product that is a distributed cloud-based edge storage network. Vivent Smart Home, our parent company, is a smart home provider that places a lot of hard drives across homes in North America," explained JT Olds, Director of Engineering, and Brandon Crowfeather, Product Manager, at Vivint Smart Home, in this SYS-CON.tv interview at @ThingsExpo, held Oct 31 – Nov 2, 2017, at the Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa Clara, CA.
    "IBM is really all in on blockchain. We take a look at sort of the history of blockchain ledger technologies. It started out with bitcoin, Ethereum, and IBM evaluated these particular blockchain technologies and found they were anonymous and permissionless and that many companies were looking for permissioned blockchain," stated René Bostic, Technical VP of the IBM Cloud Unit in North America, in this SYS-CON.tv interview at 21st Cloud Expo, held Oct 31 – Nov 2, 2017, at the Santa Clara Conventi...
    "Cloud Academy is an enterprise training platform for the cloud, specifically public clouds. We offer guided learning experiences on AWS, Azure, Google Cloud and all the surrounding methodologies and technologies that you need to know and your teams need to know in order to leverage the full benefits of the cloud," explained Alex Brower, VP of Marketing at Cloud Academy, in this SYS-CON.tv interview at 21st Cloud Expo, held Oct 31 – Nov 2, 2017, at the Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa Clar...
    It is of utmost importance for the future success of WebRTC to ensure that interoperability is operational between web browsers and any WebRTC-compliant client. To be guaranteed as operational and effective, interoperability must be tested extensively by establishing WebRTC data and media connections between different web browsers running on different devices and operating systems. In his session at WebRTC Summit at @ThingsExpo, Dr. Alex Gouaillard, CEO and Founder of CoSMo Software, presented ...
    A strange thing is happening along the way to the Internet of Things, namely far too many devices to work with and manage. It has become clear that we'll need much higher efficiency user experiences that can allow us to more easily and scalably work with the thousands of devices that will soon be in each of our lives. Enter the conversational interface revolution, combining bots we can literally talk with, gesture to, and even direct with our thoughts, with embedded artificial intelligence, whic...
    SYS-CON Events announced today that Evatronix will exhibit at SYS-CON's 21st International Cloud Expo®, which will take place on Oct 31 – Nov 2, 2017, at the Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa Clara, CA. Evatronix SA offers comprehensive solutions in the design and implementation of electronic systems, in CAD / CAM deployment, and also is a designer and manufacturer of advanced 3D scanners for professional applications.
    Leading companies, from the Global Fortune 500 to the smallest companies, are adopting hybrid cloud as the path to business advantage. Hybrid cloud depends on cloud services and on-premises infrastructure working in unison. Successful implementations require new levels of data mobility, enabled by an automated and seamless flow across on-premises and cloud resources. In his general session at 21st Cloud Expo, Greg Tevis, an IBM Storage Software Technical Strategist and Customer Solution Architec...
    To get the most out of their data, successful companies are not focusing on queries and data lakes, they are actively integrating analytics into their operations with a data-first application development approach. Real-time adjustments to improve revenues, reduce costs, or mitigate risk rely on applications that minimize latency on a variety of data sources. In his session at @BigDataExpo, Jack Norris, Senior Vice President, Data and Applications at MapR Technologies, reviewed best practices to ...
    An increasing number of companies are creating products that combine data with analytical capabilities. Running interactive queries on Big Data requires complex architectures to store and query data effectively, typically involving data streams, an choosing efficient file format/database and multiple independent systems that are tied together through custom-engineered pipelines. In his session at @BigDataExpo at @ThingsExpo, Tomer Levi, a senior software engineer at Intel’s Advanced Analytics gr...
    When talking IoT we often focus on the devices, the sensors, the hardware itself. The new smart appliances, the new smart or self-driving cars (which are amalgamations of many ‘things’). When we are looking at the world of IoT, we should take a step back, look at the big picture. What value are these devices providing? IoT is not about the devices, it’s about the data consumed and generated. The devices are tools, mechanisms, conduits. In his session at Internet of Things at Cloud Expo | DXWor...
    Everything run by electricity will eventually be connected to the Internet. Get ahead of the Internet of Things revolution. In his session at @ThingsExpo, Akvelon expert and IoT industry leader Sergey Grebnov provided an educational dive into the world of managing your home, workplace and all the devices they contain with the power of machine-based AI and intelligent Bot services for a completely streamlined experience.
    SYS-CON Events announced today that Synametrics Technologies will exhibit at SYS-CON's 22nd International Cloud Expo®, which will take place on June 5-7, 2018, at the Javits Center in New York, NY. Synametrics Technologies is a privately held company based in Plainsboro, New Jersey that has been providing solutions for the developer community since 1997. Based on the success of its initial product offerings such as WinSQL, Xeams, SynaMan and Syncrify, Synametrics continues to create and hone inn...