|By David Geary||
|August 19, 2004 12:00 AM EDT||
"Whatever you do, don't use JSF. Not yet anyway." Those were the closing words of a devastating blog recently called "My JSF Experience" by J2EE consultant Matt Raible. "JSF is a technology that's likely to succeed," Raible added later - but his main beef with JavaServer Faces was clear: "Plain and simple, it does not simplify Web development."
This spurred the following spirited response from a member of the JSF Expert Group, David Geary. ("I do not speak for the group" when making these comments, Geary notes.)
David Geary writes:
"Matt starts out by saying:
Ouch! I don't know what Matt thinks is problematic in the spec, because that's the last time he mentions it in his post. The list of complaints that follow in Matt's article refer to implementation-specific details of Sun's RI and MyFaces and some other things such as lack of JSF support, but nothing about the spec. So I'm not sure how to respond to that.
Of all the MVC Frameworks I've developed with in the last few weeks (Struts, Spring MVC, WebWork and Tapestry) - JSF was by far the worst. And it's not the implementations that are the problem, it's the spec itself (as far as I can tell). Plain and simple, it does not simplify Web development.
Also, I don't think that one of JSF's top priorities is to simplify Web development. Certainly that's a laudable goal, but you have to understand that JSF is: Web App Framework + Components + Event Model. That makes it considerably more complex than Struts, for instance, which is simply a framework. Also, JSF was designed primarily for use with tools, although I don't think that coding JSF apps by hand is necessarily more difficult than other frameworks of similar complexity (for instance, Tapestry). I'm sure Howard Lewis-Ship would take exception to that last assumption, but I think it's a pretty accurate statement.
Before I address Matt's specific complaints, let me say two things. First, JSF is not perfect and the Expert Group is well aware of its shortcomings, which we're working on for the next version. Remember, JSF is 1.0 (1.1 actually, but 1.1 is just a bug-fix release); I think Matt would've had a much different perception of JSF if he'd compared it against the 1.0 versions of Struts, Tapestry, etc.
Second, I'm not sure that spending a few days implementing a simple application in each framework is really enough to allow someone to recommend one framework over another. That said, I do think there is some value in such a comparison, but it's not the best vehicle for recommending one framework over another.
Now I'll address Matt's specific complaints:
MyFaces handles duplicate posts nicely. If you hit "reload" on your browser after saving a record, you get presented with an empty form rather than a duplicate record. I believe I got a duplicate record with Sun's RI.
The JSF RI is not very good at handling duplicate posts. It's something we're working on for 1.2.
The ability to specify an "action" attribute on a button (or a link) and them map that action to a page (in faces-config.xml) is pretty cool.
Yes it is!
Every button or link clicked results in a form post. That's just wrong - why can't I have true links like the web is supposed to? So much for bookmarks.
You can have true links: see the h:outputLink tag. For buttons, you can do <h:commandButton type="button"/>, which will give you a push button, not a submit button.
Saving state on the client results in enormously long URLs and/or hidden fields.
That's an implementation-specific detail of the RI (and perhaps MyFaces). The spec itself doesn't specify exactly how client-side state saving needs to be implemented. Also, remember that state saving is pluggable in JSF. If you don't like the way it works with your framework, you can plug in your own implementation.
JSF support is fairly non-existent. Unlike the other MVC frameworks, the MyFaces mailing list has hardly any traffic and the Sun forums aren't much better.
I can't speak for the MyFaces mailing list, but the JSF forum at Sun is quite active. See http://forum.java.sun.com/forum.jsp?forum=427.
I did find some CRUD examples, like this this one, but was disappointed to find that i18n is not considered for setting success messages. I ended up using the solution described in this post. 6 lines of code to set a success message - you've got to be kidding me! Most frameworks have a simple 1-2 liner.
This is the result of two competing forces when designing frameworks: the desire to provide the kitchen sink and the desire to provide a simple API. You can't have both, and this is one area where we deliberately chose to leave out functionality. In fact, you will find other cases (like accessing request parameters) that may seem to be more work than is necessary. I would suggest that you encapsulate those 6 lines in a utility class of your own, which reduces it to one line going forward. Of course, the cost of those 6 lines lies in figuring out how to do it in the first place. You can obviate that need by using good utility classes that someone else has already written. You can find such classes at http://www.corejsf.com.
Waiting for JSPs to compile the first time has surprisingly become painful after using Tapestry, Velocity and FreeMarker for the last 2 weeks.
JSF desperately needs to support an alternative display technology besides JSP out of the box. In fact, it's much uglier than simply having to wait for JSP pages to compile. See Hans Bergsten's article "Improving JSF by dumping JSP" at onjava.com.
Validation messages are ugly. For instance, when a required field isn't filled in, I get: "lastName": Value is required. I was able to override the default messages, but I was never able to use the label of the field (vs. the field's id).
The standard messages are indeed ugly, but it's a cinch to replace them. You should be able to use the field's label.
The <h:messages> tag is practically worthless. Sure it's great for displaying messages (error and success), but that's about it. It has a "layout" attribute that doesn't even work in Sun's RI, and in MyFaces it just wraps a <span> with a <ul><li> or a <table>. Both of these layouts are useless b/c you can't set a css class on them. I ended up using "table" and having to set a generic CSS rule (width: 100%) in order to get the message/error bar to show across the top of my page. This tag also doesn't allow you to escape HTML.
The h:messages tag could certainly be improved, but the layout attribute does work in Sun's RI and you can set a CSS class on them. See the end of chapter 4 in Core JSF. (I'm convinced that Matt needs a good JSF book!)
The h:dataTable component is nothing like the displaytag. MyFaces claims to have a pageable/sortable component, but it requires custom logic/methods in your managed-bean. Yuck. I ended up using <h:dataTable>, which has neither sorting or paging. This is only because I couldn't get an <h:commandLink> working inside a displaytag column.
h:dataTable could definitely use some attention.
Testability is another area that could use some improvement. At least actions can be implemented in POJOs (unlike Struts), which means that you can test business logic with JUnit.
Finally, Matt mentions that he felt like he was banging his head against the wall with both Tapestry and JSF. I would assert that trying to come up to speed with any framework in a couple of days will result in considerable weeping and gnashing of teeth."
|Doctor 03/22/05 07:03:26 AM EST|
I had practical experience with JSF 1.1 for three month.
By the way, anybody knows any JSF-based professional commercial projects?
|Clare 09/24/04 07:24:03 AM EDT|
I've never used JSF so I can't offer my own perspective, but after reading the article, I'm left with the impression that many of Raible's issues are still valid.
Also, I was wondering if Geary meant "cinch" where the article says "sinch", and "assert" where it says "ascertain."
|Raj Madhuram 08/24/04 03:16:42 PM EDT|
Check this out:
|Renat Zubairov 08/22/04 05:49:30 AM EDT|
I like this place in the article "You can obviate that need by using good utility classes that someone else has already written." - for me it sounds like "We''ve created a very nice API, yeah, it isn''t really usable, but there UTILITY classes someone (not us) have written, so just use them"
|Dan 08/20/04 06:07:36 PM EDT|
They said wait till next version in EJB. We are still waiting. The most important thing said is "Simplicity is not a goal of JSF".
I don''t think Sun is capable of producing an easy to use software development tool. This will place an upper limit on Java''s growth.
|Alexander Jesse 08/20/04 09:08:54 AM EDT|
Well. I really like Struts. And JSF is in the beginnings. If you look at what happened since this spring, you must say that it is taking off well.
The main advantages of JSF are (my opinion): 1) the component orientation which already leads to the first component market for a Java-web presentation framework. And allows for your own custom components. 2) IDE-friendliness which will somewhat ease the learning curve for average programmers. Even though each team should have an expert on board or standing by close.
The options: If you need to get your app out in two weeks: stick to what you know. If you can invest a few weeks in experimenting and foresee other projects in a similar problem domain: jump on the JSF-wagon.
|Matt Raible 08/20/04 05:34:36 AM EDT|
Kito Mann and David have said the same thing: I've stated I have a problem with the specs, but there's not much proof in my post.
I'll agree with you both. The few minor issues I
I hope these issues are fixed soon b/c I do think JSF has potential. It
simply doesn't meet my meager requirements to write a basic webapp.
|Kito Mann 08/20/04 05:30:34 AM EDT|
Matt Raible says that the problem is with the specification, not the implementations. However, the only points he makes that are related to the specification are the requirement for form posts and the lack of a simple way to internationalize application-generated messages. (By the way, you can create normal hrefs using the HtmlOutputLink component (), but they can''t execute actions. Most of the issues you mentioned were either specific implementation bugs or issues with specific component implementations. It''s fair to point out that the standard UI components are useful, but they''re really only the tip of the iceberg. Several companies (including Oracle and several smaller companies) either have, or will, be introducing better components. It''s also fair to note that JSF is newer than the other frameworks you''ve used, so you can''t expect the same amount of traffic in the on-line forums.
Kito D. Mann Author, JSF in Action
|toto 08/19/04 09:51:49 AM EDT|
I think Raible is too in love with struts to have a clear sight on what''s going on. I tested recently JSF, and having had not so much pleasure practising struts, I can say I prefer JSF. It requires a little bit more words to get something work, but I like the global approach, and I can feel it will *probably* win the game. We should remember that Craig R. McClanahan, creator of struts and major contributor of the JSF specs, recommends the migration to JSF.
|Aris 08/19/04 09:39:44 AM EDT|
I just finished a project using JSF. I learned it along the way. I recommend other web application projects to use it, but only after the developers have read the spec. There is a learning curve for JSF that is just as high as it was for Struts two years ago when I knew Struts was a crappy way to do web apps. But that''s not the case for Struts now. I can develop web apps easier,better,faster with JSF because I a software developer, not because JSF is filled with magic pixie dust.
|Armin 08/19/04 09:08:06 AM EDT|
I was trying to use JSF with struts using struts-faces and myfaces implementation. But after banging the whole day...it seems to me that JSF is still not matured..no clear information...no clear documentation (Like Struts). I can''t believe that Craig R. McClanahan is also on the JSF Reference Imple. Working with JSF is not worth at the moment. Vote for Matt Raible.
|Vic 08/19/04 09:04:48 AM EDT|
They said wait till next version in EJB. We are still waiting. The most important thing said is "Simplicity is not a goal of JSF". .V
|Dim 08/19/04 08:43:46 AM EDT|
Through WebRTC, audio and video communications are being embedded more easily than ever into applications, helping carriers, enterprises and independent software vendors deliver greater functionality to their end users. With today’s business world increasingly focused on outcomes, users’ growing calls for ease of use, and businesses craving smarter, tighter integration, what’s the next step in delivering a richer, more immersive experience? That richer, more fully integrated experience comes about through a Communications Platform as a Service which allows for messaging, screen sharing, video...
Oct. 9, 2015 12:00 AM EDT Reads: 1,125
The buzz continues for cloud, data analytics and the Internet of Things (IoT) and their collective impact across all industries. But a new conversation is emerging - how do companies use industry disruption and technology enablers to lead in markets undergoing change, uncertainty and ambiguity? Organizations of all sizes need to evolve and transform, often under massive pressure, as industry lines blur and merge and traditional business models are assaulted and turned upside down. In this new data-driven world, marketplaces reign supreme while interoperability, APIs and applications deliver un...
Oct. 8, 2015 11:30 PM EDT Reads: 278
The Internet of Things (IoT) is growing rapidly by extending current technologies, products and networks. By 2020, Cisco estimates there will be 50 billion connected devices. Gartner has forecast revenues of over $300 billion, just to IoT suppliers. Now is the time to figure out how you’ll make money – not just create innovative products. With hundreds of new products and companies jumping into the IoT fray every month, there’s no shortage of innovation. Despite this, McKinsey/VisionMobile data shows "less than 10 percent of IoT developers are making enough to support a reasonably sized team....
Oct. 8, 2015 11:30 PM EDT Reads: 201
SYS-CON Events announced today that Dyn, the worldwide leader in Internet Performance, will exhibit at SYS-CON's 17th International Cloud Expo®, which will take place on November 3-5, 2015, at the Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa Clara, CA. Dyn is a cloud-based Internet Performance company. Dyn helps companies monitor, control, and optimize online infrastructure for an exceptional end-user experience. Through a world-class network and unrivaled, objective intelligence into Internet conditions, Dyn ensures traffic gets delivered faster, safer, and more reliably than ever.
Oct. 8, 2015 10:00 PM EDT Reads: 591
There are so many tools and techniques for data analytics that even for a data scientist the choices, possible systems, and even the types of data can be daunting. In his session at @ThingsExpo, Chris Harrold, Global CTO for Big Data Solutions for EMC Corporation, will show how to perform a simple, but meaningful analysis of social sentiment data using freely available tools that take only minutes to download and install. Participants will get the download information, scripts, and complete end-to-end walkthrough of the analysis from start to finish. Participants will also be given the pract...
Oct. 8, 2015 09:15 PM EDT Reads: 285
The IoT market is on track to hit $7.1 trillion in 2020. The reality is that only a handful of companies are ready for this massive demand. There are a lot of barriers, paint points, traps, and hidden roadblocks. How can we deal with these issues and challenges? The paradigm has changed. Old-style ad-hoc trial-and-error ways will certainly lead you to the dead end. What is mandatory is an overarching and adaptive approach to effectively handle the rapid changes and exponential growth.
Oct. 8, 2015 09:00 PM EDT Reads: 118
Today’s connected world is moving from devices towards things, what this means is that by using increasingly low cost sensors embedded in devices we can create many new use cases. These span across use cases in cities, vehicles, home, offices, factories, retail environments, worksites, health, logistics, and health. These use cases rely on ubiquitous connectivity and generate massive amounts of data at scale. These technologies enable new business opportunities, ways to optimize and automate, along with new ways to engage with users.
Oct. 8, 2015 08:15 PM EDT Reads: 161
Internet of Things (IoT) will be a hybrid ecosystem of diverse devices and sensors collaborating with operational and enterprise systems to create the next big application. In their session at @ThingsExpo, Bramh Gupta, founder and CEO of robomq.io, and Fred Yatzeck, principal architect leading product development at robomq.io, discussed how choosing the right middleware and integration strategy from the get-go will enable IoT solution developers to adapt and grow with the industry, while at the same time reduce Time to Market (TTM) by using plug and play capabilities offered by a robust IoT ...
Oct. 8, 2015 06:00 PM EDT Reads: 2,163
Mobile messaging has been a popular communication channel for more than 20 years. Finnish engineer Matti Makkonen invented the idea for SMS (Short Message Service) in 1984, making his vision a reality on December 3, 1992 by sending the first message ("Happy Christmas") from a PC to a cell phone. Since then, the technology has evolved immensely, from both a technology standpoint, and in our everyday uses for it. Originally used for person-to-person (P2P) communication, i.e., Sally sends a text message to Betty – mobile messaging now offers tremendous value to businesses for customer and empl...
Oct. 8, 2015 05:30 PM EDT Reads: 235
Can call centers hang up the phones for good? Intuitive Solutions did. WebRTC enabled this contact center provider to eliminate antiquated telephony and desktop phone infrastructure with a pure web-based solution, allowing them to expand beyond brick-and-mortar confines to a home-based agent model. It also ensured scalability and better service for customers, including MUY! Companies, one of the country's largest franchise restaurant companies with 232 Pizza Hut locations. This is one example of WebRTC adoption today, but the potential is limitless when powered by IoT.
Oct. 8, 2015 04:30 PM EDT Reads: 7,471
You have your devices and your data, but what about the rest of your Internet of Things story? Two popular classes of technologies that nicely handle the Big Data analytics for Internet of Things are Apache Hadoop and NoSQL. Hadoop is designed for parallelizing analytical work across many servers and is ideal for the massive data volumes you create with IoT devices. NoSQL databases such as Apache HBase are ideal for storing and retrieving IoT data as “time series data.”
Oct. 8, 2015 02:45 PM EDT Reads: 501
Clearly the way forward is to move to cloud be it bare metal, VMs or containers. One aspect of the current public clouds that is slowing this cloud migration is cloud lock-in. Every cloud vendor is trying to make it very difficult to move out once a customer has chosen their cloud. In his session at 17th Cloud Expo, Naveen Nimmu, CEO of Clouber, Inc., will advocate that making the inter-cloud migration as simple as changing airlines would help the entire industry to quickly adopt the cloud without worrying about any lock-in fears. In fact by having standard APIs for IaaS would help PaaS expl...
Oct. 8, 2015 02:30 PM EDT Reads: 655
NHK, Japan Broadcasting, will feature the upcoming @ThingsExpo Silicon Valley in a special 'Internet of Things' and smart technology documentary that will be filmed on the expo floor between November 3 to 5, 2015, in Santa Clara. NHK is the sole public TV network in Japan equivalent to the BBC in the UK and the largest in Asia with many award-winning science and technology programs. Japanese TV is producing a documentary about IoT and Smart technology and will be covering @ThingsExpo Silicon Valley. The program, to be aired during the peak viewership season of the year, will have a major impac...
Oct. 8, 2015 01:00 PM EDT Reads: 264
SYS-CON Events announced today that ProfitBricks, the provider of painless cloud infrastructure, will exhibit at SYS-CON's 17th International Cloud Expo®, which will take place on November 3–5, 2015, at the Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa Clara, CA. ProfitBricks is the IaaS provider that offers a painless cloud experience for all IT users, with no learning curve. ProfitBricks boasts flexible cloud servers and networking, an integrated Data Center Designer tool for visual control over the cloud and the best price/performance value available. ProfitBricks was named one of the coolest Clo...
Oct. 8, 2015 01:00 PM EDT Reads: 765
Organizations already struggle with the simple collection of data resulting from the proliferation of IoT, lacking the right infrastructure to manage it. They can't only rely on the cloud to collect and utilize this data because many applications still require dedicated infrastructure for security, redundancy, performance, etc. In his session at 17th Cloud Expo, Emil Sayegh, CEO of Codero Hosting, will discuss how in order to resolve the inherent issues, companies need to combine dedicated and cloud solutions through hybrid hosting – a sustainable solution for the data required to manage I...
Oct. 8, 2015 01:00 PM EDT Reads: 479
Apps and devices shouldn't stop working when there's limited or no network connectivity. Learn how to bring data stored in a cloud database to the edge of the network (and back again) whenever an Internet connection is available. In his session at 17th Cloud Expo, Bradley Holt, Developer Advocate at IBM Cloud Data Services, will demonstrate techniques for replicating cloud databases with devices in order to build offline-first mobile or Internet of Things (IoT) apps that can provide a better, faster user experience, both offline and online. The focus of this talk will be on IBM Cloudant, Apa...
Oct. 8, 2015 12:45 PM EDT Reads: 511
WebRTC is about the data channel as much as about video and audio conferencing. However, basically all commercial WebRTC applications have been built with a focus on audio and video. The handling of “data” has been limited to text chat and file download – all other data sharing seems to end with screensharing. What is holding back a more intensive use of peer-to-peer data? In her session at @ThingsExpo, Dr Silvia Pfeiffer, WebRTC Applications Team Lead at National ICT Australia, will look at different existing uses of peer-to-peer data sharing and how it can become useful in a live session to...
Oct. 8, 2015 12:00 PM EDT Reads: 609
As a company adopts a DevOps approach to software development, what are key things that both the Dev and Ops side of the business must keep in mind to ensure effective continuous delivery? In his session at DevOps Summit, Mark Hydar, Head of DevOps, Ericsson TV Platforms, will share best practices and provide helpful tips for Ops teams to adopt an open line of communication with the development side of the house to ensure success between the two sides.
Oct. 8, 2015 12:00 PM EDT Reads: 579
SYS-CON Events announced today that IBM Cloud Data Services has been named “Bronze Sponsor” of SYS-CON's 17th Cloud Expo, which will take place on November 3–5, 2015, at the Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa Clara, CA. IBM Cloud Data Services offers a portfolio of integrated, best-of-breed cloud data services for developers focused on mobile computing and analytics use cases.
Oct. 8, 2015 11:00 AM EDT Reads: 731
"Matrix is an ambitious open standard and implementation that's set up to break down the fragmentation problems that exist in IP messaging and VoIP communication," explained John Woolf, Technical Evangelist at Matrix, in this SYS-CON.tv interview at @ThingsExpo, held Nov 4–6, 2014, at the Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa Clara, CA.
Oct. 8, 2015 07:00 AM EDT Reads: 5,870