I think Joseph is wrong to characterise as "compromisers" those "who feel it''s more important to use Java": was "engineers" the word you sought? What is Java, if not a better way to build software for the real world? The zealots who insist we shouldn''t adopt Java without adopting the principle of a platform independent GUI are probably the same guys who go to Star Trek conventions to talk Klingon: I''m sure it''s a fulfilling, self-consistent fantasy world but...

Swing was a misconceived investment, and you can''t correct this by making it compulsory :-)
That it has PLAFs seems to undermine the "one (new) GUI! (ours)" manifesto.

There is a market out there for software which conforms closely to well-established looks-and-feels, which browses huge lists and trees no more slowly than native widgets do, and which passes for native (fools the users). If Swing did this better that SWT we''d use it.

I think it is the *zealots* who have hijacked Java; their mission ("with this we shall change the world!") is not just some kinda heroic folly, but a betrayal of the grade A engineering vision and judgement of those who made Java such a fine tool.

Mr Ottinger,

That is your problem you never realised I care.

My tone will change when JDJ changes. But there was a few interesting technical articles in this number (like the one on NIO for example) so I will take a look but it is issue by issue as I am far from convinced by your new look.
Only the content interest me. And stupidity like "middleware is dead" is not impressive.

And do not defend yourself with reality about SWT and stuff, taking side is acknowledging reality, what is suppose to be your point ?

I''m using Eclipse both on Windows XP and Linux with KDE. I don''t think Eclipse is beautiful, neither that SWT has a nice and os conforming LAF.

Take a look at Netbeans (especially the recent 3.6 beta) to see a really beautiful user interface.

Look and feel desktop integration. Are you kidding? What should I consider good look and feel desktop integration? The fact that a basic pushbutton doesn''t conform to the Windows XP''s current theme and nor do the combos, radios, checkboxes?

I found the standard Swing Windows and GTK PLAFs much more convincing than any SWT native widget. Try to run the SwingSet2 demo with these PLAFs to see my point. Btw did you know that the Windows PLAF dynamically changes as does the system''s theme?

PS. I''m using Eclipse because of it''s powerful features regarding productivity. The UI just sucks. And don''t forget that IDEA is the reference. It''s just that it isn''t free.

Why, Serge, I didn''t know you cared. Actually, I *do* see both sides - and I''m unafraid to admit that. I''m sorry you want to watch a specific dance instead of what''s real, but it certainly fits the tone you''ve always used when discussing JDJ. :)

Another politically correct article with no guts.

Gee I am on both sides, pathetic.

SWT is a big mistake and useless. Simple

Have you seen the 1.5 beta? Check out the SwingSet2 demo, and use the Windows look and feel.

What are you talking about - you have to cross OS boundaries sooner or later anyway. It doesn''t contradict Javas purity. That''s how Java platform works. Recall AWT - it was native too but Sun did not have any problems with it, so what''s wrong with SWT? I/O is native too so what?

If you fiddle with multiple OSs, you cannot expect window managers to look alike, so why do you want Java apps to look the same on different platforms? Do not forget that the reason for having PLAFs in Swing was to make users feel comfortable with Java apps by switching to their "local" LAF. Well, thats what Javasoft guys said.

Whatever fellows in Sun think, there isn''t ANY professionally looking Java applications that employ Swing. Sorry to break it to you, but can''t you see it yourself - that business with Swing citations at Swing Connection is laughable. Can you imagine Microsoft making a blog with links to apps using, say, MFC on Windows platform? Apparently, not - there are tons of those, so why bother at all. But Sun gives us links to 50-100 Swing apps written over a past decade (well, almost) and fails to realize that it''s ludicrous.

Some detest Dunkin'' Donuts coffee and hate the liquid they call coffee in McDonalds. On the other hand, Starbucks coffee is better and it''s real. But who cares? Vast majority adores surrogate coffee. The problem is that we do not care about quality in America. They do look trendy in Europe, but not in the States. People in Sun and many of their supporters just do not have taste to realize that Swing is ugly and SWT is nice  because underlying Win2K/XP API (or Motif) are well DESIGNED from esthetical point of view. Sun Swing team fellas with stains of cheap coffee on their tee shirts just cannot understand why they should abandon Swing. They really are proud of what they are doing. Good for them, but maybe they should visit Starbucks place once and buy themselves a cup of cappuccino with two extra shots of espresso.

Eclipse is a perfect example. I used it on wintel platforms for a couple of years and then decided to setup a linux/gnome box at home. I was not particularly happy to see a different eclipse. I felt even more uneasy when after upgrading gtk eclipse morphed again.